Yes, you read the above correctly. Today I speak with a sassy lady whose name is so fabulous, the singer named Madonna COPIED HER. Picture red curls and a mouth full of swear words.
The Questions
What’s your name?
Madonna (do I need any other name?)
How do you identify?
Madonna: As a cat. Ok, well… I’m actually in the midst of thinking about how I identify at 54. And honestly, maybe I’m reflecting on this for the first time in my life, really. Slowing down and looking for what is at my core – my values, my North Star, the me that I want to stay in integrity with. I read a quote the other day that said something along the lines of “People who betray themselves betray others” Yep. I don’t want to betray myself or others. I’ve been all kinds of shady at various stages of my life.
Emily: I can’t imagine you as shady, and I love love love that you’re contemplating your SELF (all capital letters) at the age of 54. I feel as if I found myself in my 20’s, lost myself in my 30’s (motherhood), and then found myself again when I divorced. I am doing a lot of work on myself right now and holy fuck shit is deep in there.
Madonna: I’m finding that each decade brings its own challenges but it also brings new freedoms and capabilities in how deep I can go and what I can handle, so keep up the depth!
But ok out of that end of the pool – I identify as a lot of random things. I identify as a female with some strong masculine energy. As a redhead. As a girl who likes both boys and girls romantically. As a reader. As Jack the cat’s mom and Peter’s mate. As a daughter and friend. As a smart ass. As a person who is making alcohol small and irrelevant in my life. As a dumb ass. Lots of things. And what a privilege I have that I can think about all these things, and the world doesn’t label me or limit me like it would try to if I wasn’t a white chick. That’s not lost on me.
Joy, from Jack the cat
What brings you joy in life?
Madonna: My cat (see a theme?). Sex and cuddling and affection. Helping people but not losing myself in the effort. Championing the underdog. Laughter. Potatoes. A good workout. The eternal search for a magical hair product that does what I want it to.
Emily: POTATOES. HAHAHAHA. That’s just delightful. I hear you on the rest, except for the workout part. I have lost my workout mojo, and need to find it again because I don’t want to lose my muscles.
Tell me about the time in your life when you met Peter?
Madonna: Oh Lord! Chaos. Work was nuts, I had ended a relationship (marriage where I was super involved with older step kids, and my ex was NOT pleased with me wanting out). I didn’t want anything to do with any man or woman at all, and was totes going to lone wolf it, thank you very much. I had known Peter as a very casual friend but hadn’t thought of him for a date or anything and a mutual friend suggested we go out. Hilarity ensued, and then the greatest love of my life happened. Fucking unexpected and fucking amazing.
Emily: The “lone wolf” thing resonates. I am slightly different in that I wanted to date (after divorce) but didn’t want to remarry. Ever. And then I met Brett. It was too soon… I wasn’t ready to meet a nice guy. I still don’t want to marry, but I’m softening towards it.
Madonna: Marriage is just a label, it makes some things easier (like insurance etc.) but it’s more a state of being, the work you put into it, so I’d say you’re already in a pretty great state whether you paper it or not.
Emily: Insert heart emoji.
Before
What about *before* you met him?
Madonna: Hmm. I think the most succinct thing I can say there is that before him, I never really let anyone see all of me, and I certainly never accepted that someone could love me as I am. Now, I still don’t get WHY he loves me but I accept that he does and that takes a lot of my self-hatred down a notch. Delightful!
What else don’t I know about you? I am guessing there’s a lot.
Madonna: I mean, I’m not full of super interesting facts. Never had kids of my own, never wanted to, ever. It was the cause of a lot of unwanted comments and observations from people over the years. In my generation and where I was raised (midwest/Michigan) that’s what you did – got married and had kids. The amount of times WOMEN have told me “you’ll never know real love if you don’t have children” is infuriating. I’ve been kind of a serial monogamist (sometimes without the monogamy on one or another person’s part) and never really saw “rest of my life” with someone until Peter. A lot of that was my immaturity and insecurity.
Emily: FUCK THOSE PEOPLE. But seriously, being raised in the South (Virginia), I had all of these things burned into my brain as well.
Madonna: Since we met at work, you may not know that I never intended to be an HR person and then I spent 30 years doing it before my current state of retirement. I liked some aspects of it but hated a lot – it was frustrating to be in a role so many people actively devalue. And a lot of HR people are weenies, let’s admit it.
Emily: Some HR people are totally weenies! GOOD WORD.
Madonna: But, I liked helping people and often used my authority to bend or break stupid rules to help employees and I liked that part. I saw a thing the other day that nailed it – “I love the sound policy makes when it breaks”. Looking back though, particularly toward the end of my run, and I’m bummed I didn’t work harder to dismantle systems vs doing things one off. I mean, I did try in some ways but not enough.
Emily: Oooo. Well, at the big company where we worked, it would be very hard to dismantle anything at all. Little acts of rebellion were/are what kept us all going! I actively figured out ways to help the people I supported, while still playing by the rules-ish. But I like the idea of doing things differently- just saying no to some of the risk-adverse lawyers and making shit happen.
Bravo, bravo!
What else?
Madonna: I unabashedly love Bravo tv and it’s the best drug possible when I’m in a bad mood. Nothing makes me feel as good about myself as watching Real Housewives mwhahahaha.
Emily: Ha! For me, that’s Tik Tok.
Madonna: I love Khloe Kardashian. I love her. I want to hang with her. She should be my bestie. Like, now. Or most Kardahsians except Khourtney or Kendall (who is a Jenner, but still) they both annoy me to no end.
Emily: I am blissfully out of date on the Kardashian’s, but I do admire that they brought curves back into style. I give them much credit for making junk in the trunk enviable. I have junk in my trunk – a lot of it. Damn that sounds nasty.
Madonna: I’m spending 2021 trying to get my shit together and contemplating what work comes next, be it volunteering or paid work. I’m feeling really stymied – I’m just not sure what direction to go. I’ve been doing a lot of self reflection and development and I’m just starting to feel like I’m able to grasp a bit more about who I am at my center. It’s hard fucking work! And a great luxury to be able to do it.
Emily: Wait, what did you *intend* to do for your career, if it wasn’t HR? I think it’s wonderful that you can thoughtfully jump into something (or not), work wise.
M – I wanted to be a child psychologist for a long time, then just a therapist. But in my training I realized I had my own shit to work out before I tinker in the heads of others. My dream job though? I/d have a talk show (like basic cable type) where I’m taking a bath and just give people support or advice (all my bits are covered of course, it’s not HBO). And everyone signs a release so they can’t blame me for how things turn out 🙂
Wrapping it up with a bow?
Last but not least, I need to say that you’re my swear-word model. You know the glory of a well-placed ‘motherfucker’ and I admire that about you.
Madonna: Cursing is just fucking fun. I worked in auto plants through college and after, and it really honed my craft. I can choose to control my cursing when I need but I just plain like it, so fuck it. I mean, I have no idea really how I landed in and stayed in HR and everyone sort of expects you to be a weird cross of a librarian and mother and policy police so my mouth really didn’t fit the model. And I’m cool with that.
Emily: Amen to that. After years of tiptoeing around it, I finally found my work style, which is casual and full of humor plus very engaging but GET SHIT DONE. Note: I just really struggled to NOT use a Leadership Principle (LP) to explain myself – especially because I knew you are fully fluent in my “LP” language. Fuck.
Madonna: You are amazing at your work, your style island approach are on point, and your intelligence and humor is a blessing to any org. If I never made that clear to you, then here it is in writing!
Wait, how did you casually drop it in here that you like both men and women? I confessed early on in this Blog thing that I think Gal Godot is … just gorgeous! Do you have any celeb crushes?
Madonna: Gal is hot, but not my type. But I have a range in celebrity crushes – from Michael B Jordan to Tig Notaro. I like allll the sporty girls – so maybe Abby Wambach. I wouldn’t say no to Gail from Top Chef. Dax Shepard is the celebrity I’d both like to make out with and just hang with (and Peter loves Kristen Bell so maybe we could make a plan there!).
Emily: Bwah ha ha. Perfect.